Canon Puncture 85: Game Advocates – Sorceror
By Orklord on Jan 29, 2010 in Featured, Game Advocates, The Canon Puncture Show
Game Advocates is a miniseries of interviews about a single game, not with the game designers but with people who have thoroughly played the game. In Game Advocates, we ask about how the game plays, what’s fun about it and what players enjoy about it. We also chat about possible pitfalls for new players.
This episode’s advocate is Jesse Burneko. Jesse is a renowned GM of Sorceror and a member of the cast of the podcast – Actual Play, Actual People (http://apap.libsyn.com/)
Jesse advocates for Sorceror and Sorceror and Sword by Ron Edwards.
Find it here: http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com/
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (0.0KB)
Seems not to be working at the moment. Can you fix it?
GB Steve | Jan 29, 2010 | Reply
Fixed! Had to put the “www” in the file link.
Thanks, GB Steve
Orklord | Jan 30, 2010 | Reply
Thanks for the plug and kind words for Actual People, Actual Play.
WillH | Jan 30, 2010 | Reply
Forcing the players to choose mechanically between hiding themselves or commanding their demon to hide, is awesome.
Those were some great A.P. moments for this game. Makes me want to dust it off.
Thanks for taking the time to advocate! This series is going so well.
Arnold | Feb 2, 2010 | Reply
I’m really digging these advocate eps, especially the ones on the old school hippie games.
Heh. Funny to apply the term “old school” to the hippie games, but there’s definitely a generational gap now.
Incidentally, I’d command the demon to hide, then try to bluff my way out of the situation. You can always call the demon out to save your bacon later. Unless you can’t.
Dave (aka Nev the Deranged) | Feb 3, 2010 | Reply
Thanks for this episode; I so totally ‘get’ this game now. As I’m driving listening I was picturing my character: a failed artist and his demon muse/model. Shades of ‘Pickman’s Model’ from Lovecraft. Lots of great story potential in this game.
Is Sorcerer and Sword a separate product?
JJ | Feb 4, 2010 | Reply
@Nev – nice strategy with the demon there
@JJ Yes, Sorcery and Sword is a separate book using the same base rules but for a more fantasy feel.
Orklord | Feb 4, 2010 | Reply
Thanks so much for this. And I thought Jesse was great talking about the game.
I know Jesse sees Sorcerer and Sorcerer & Sword as two separate games. My own view is that if you take Sorcerer along with all the supplements (especially Sorcerer & Sword, Sorcerer’ Soul) you get an amazing tool kit to build all sorts of settings.
I’ve GMed a game of Sorcerer in a prison, where the Demons were all the trappings of prison life (tattoos, shivs, cell blocks…) I’ve used the Angel rules from Sorcerer’s Soul to create a Sorcerer game in the GDW Traveller setting, where the Angels were the spirits of the Ancients sent from the past to bring a Holy War to the Imperium and settles the stars with peace.
You can use the game in setting like ancient Greece, where the Angels would be the Gods and the Demons would be ties of loyalty to a city or a war.
The game is incredibly flexible once you bring all the pieces together and pick and choose what you want to use.
I found it interesting that Jesse pointed out that some people might not like the “intensity” of the game, but when asked what are some of the reasons people might like it, he didn’t answer, “the intensity of the game.”
As both a Player and a GM I’ve first and foremost been drawn to the game because of the intensity. The game offers me the sort of fiction that you find in terrific long form cable shows like Battlestar Galactica, The Shield, Dexter, Damages and so on, as well as Shakespeare’s histories and tragedies, the Homeric epics and more.
There’s nothing strange or brutal about the intensity that Sorcerer provokes — though it might not be what people are expecting from an RPG. I think that’s where the shock comes in, by the way. It’s not more intense than most fiction I’ve ever loved. But it is more intense than most RPG play.
And, yeah. I guess it is considered “old school” indie now. It has not top-down Player controlled widgets to alter the fiction or reality. There’s the GM. There’s the Players. But in that formula there’s the intensity of what your protagonist is willing to risk to get what he or she wants.
That’s the strength of the game.
CK
Christopher Kubasik | Feb 4, 2010 | Reply
I think it’s important to point out that none of the supplements (Sorcerer & Sword, The Sorcerer’s Soul, Sex & Sorcery) are stand alone works. They all build on the previous ones, and all are supplements to Sorcerer itself- mechanical supplements primarily, with only a small focus on additional setting material. These are emphatically not “splatbooks” or fluff.
This episode got me thinking about a character, too… an aspiring indie comic artist who summons a demon based on the nightmarish vigilante from his comics. It’s important, however, that character generation for Sorcerer be part of play, not pre-play or away-from-the-table gamesturbation. Having a concept is fine, but you have to leave enough room for the character to be woven in with the other PCs, NPCs, and the setting. As Jesse points out, player buy-in is absolutely critical in this game.
Okay, now that I’m talking about it, I’m gonna have to try to finagle someone to run some at Forge Midwest… *sigh*
Dave (aka Nev the Deranged) | Feb 4, 2010 | Reply
The GA series has been great so far, but more than any other, this episode *really* transmitted the essence of the game to me (the listener) and made me want to run and buy the game and demand someone run it for me.
Daniel M. Perez | Feb 15, 2010 | Reply
@CK – That prison setting you describe is quite evocative. Cool concept!
@Dave – that’s a supercool character concept… I could see it in Don’t Rest Your Head, too.
@Daniel – I agree on that, Jesse is a pretty awesome advocate.
Orklord | Feb 19, 2010 | Reply
@CK: Was that the same setting we discussed at GenCon last year during one of your mini-seminars? I know Kevin Weiser and I both really wanted to play that game RIGHT THEN.
Dave (aka Nev the Deranged) | Feb 19, 2010 | Reply
I finally worked up the nerve to listen to this. The editing job is fantastic.
Also, thanks for the kind words from people.
CK and I have talked a bit about my notions about Sorcerer and Sorcerer & Sword being two games. I wanted to address his thoughts and clarify my own. CK’s interpretation as the whole thing being a “tool kit” is probably more accurate from a technical perspective. If you wanted to bring Necromantic Tokens from Sorcerer & Sword into a present day situation I’m sure that would work just fine.
However, I think there’s a “base presentation” to those first two books that are relatively safe for new comers. If you’re a beginner then I don’t recommend straying far from those base presentations. Customize the color, yes, that’s vital but stick with Human-Scale Contemporary (maybe Historical) World or Human-Scale Pulp Fantasy as your base points the first time out.
I think CK’s Angels In Space, Humanity is Friendship set up is an extremely sophisticated and considered application of the rules. I would never, ever recommend a beginner start with something that subtle.
It’s funny that CK brought up the “intensity” as something someone might like about the game. As I was listening to the interview I found myself thinking, “Why didn’t I think to say ‘the intensity’ when I was asked what someone might like about the game?”
Although I know that I was trying to cover as many bases as possible with each answer. I do think the “fun” of Sorcerer really does begin with the Demons. Too many times I’ve seen players try to dodge that element rather than revel in it. They tend to favor Object demons thinking they’re fairly inert. They tend to have almost all of the demon powers confer to their character. They pick relatively un-grabby Needs and Desires.
To me a Sorcerer and his Demon is a conceptual unit. I have trouble of conceiving one without the other. You have to be “into” the dynamic you’re imagining between Sorcerer and Demon and that often begins with thinking the Demon is fun and cool in its own right.
Jesse
Jesse Burneko | Feb 19, 2010 | Reply
@Dave, yes.
To Jesse’s points, I say, without doubt, “Yes.”
The Traveller/Space game was a pretty sophisticated application of the rules. I didn’t think of it that way at the time, but I add been wading deep into Sorcerer for some time. More over, I was sort of trying to get myself into trouble — I was trying to push the Sorcerer rules hard so I could see where they might bend or snap. And, in fact, by doing that work I found out some things about the rules I hadn’t noticed before. So, yeah. You probably don’t want to try that the first time out.
Still…in terms of color, I’m still not sure. I came up with a far future setting for Sorcerer inspired by Warhammer 40K art. ( http://playsorcerer.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/future-perfect-a-setting-for-sorcerer/ ) Would this overwhelm players the first time out? If they thought of it and it really, really turned them on?
I don’t know. I mean that sincerely: I don’t know. I’m a big believer in the notion that if your passionate about something, you’ll find a way. I’d hate to think someone would play a more “conservative” setting for Sorcerer as their first run just to play it safe. I mean, right there you’re kind of damaging the fun — IF you’re not passionate about the modern day setting you’re playing in.
But I buy Jesse’s point. There’s a lot going on in the game, and it could be easy to get caught up in all the setting details if it’s some sort of crazy exotic place — and that’s going to be a distraction in Sorcerer. (This was part of my experiment in playing Sorcerer in the Traveller setting.)
I’m not contradicting anything Jesse said by adding this: Play in a modern day setting or some mundane setting first time out, but whatever you choose make sure you’re crazy interested in the Humanity as you define it, the Demons as you define them, and so on.
Christopher Kubasik | Feb 20, 2010 | Reply